Q:  Welcome to our monthly program, the China Corner, and also once again, welcome Ambassador Zhao Weiping into the studio. Ambassador, thank you, Welcome.

A: Thank you, Dwight, and thanks to all our friends who are listening to this program. I'm very happy to be back to the studio of Eagle FM.

Q: We are close to the rainfall, Ambassador.

A: Yeah, that's good. I wish there would be more rain.

Q: I hope so, too. Because Okahandja got rain before us, the south got rain before us. But Windhoek always has an issue. I don't know what we did to the clouds. But we will hope.

Ambassador, thank you once again for taking time to talk to us. For our listeners out there, we're doing this every month, this is our second episode of China Corner. The first particular episode helped the listeners to try and understand the international relations landscape. But today, we're taking a bit of a more relaxed look at it in a historic context. Ambassador, our question today takes us into a developmental journey, specifically this one in terms of where China's particular journey, a very beautiful journey if I should say, because this was about poverty alleviation in its own right, and also improving of livelihoods. On that particular note, before I take you to the first question, if you can just give us a small introduction on our conversation for today.

A: Okay, Dwight, I'm very happy to talk about China's development and other relevant issues today with you and with our listeners. I will try to make it brief, of course, it's a long story. The People's Republic of China or the new China was founded in 1949, actually, we spent 30 years exploring how to develop our country. We made remarkable progress in many areas, but we also made some mistakes along the way and paid a heavy price, so in the late 1970s, China was still a poor country. But in the year 1979, the Chinese government decided to adopt the policy of Reform and Opening-Up, and that was indeed a turning point. In a sense, I think that's also the beginning of the development journey of contemporary China.

Q: Ambassador, laying the ground for our conversation today, many of us, includes me as well, I'm too young to know what happened back in the 1970s. But if we look at this particular discussion, the 1970s obviously also saw a lot of particular developments come through, a lot of technologies. Today, we only see the, what do they call it, the back end of these particular successful policies and the likes. If we look at the particular view of the historical elements in that development story, last time we spoke, which was two years back, we spoke about the Belt and Road Initiative. But the Belt and Road Initiative is also a good result stemming from all that hard work. If we also tie this in, Ambassador, in terms of that the Belt and Road Initiative is external, but internally, what were some of the particular developments that sprung up in the 1970s from that particular change?

A: Let me share with you some of the achievements China has made over the past 40 years. I think we can sum it up in just one sentence that China has achieved two major miracles.

One is the rapid economic development and the other is long-term social stability. In terms of rapid economic development, I want to share with you some figures. In 1979, our per capita GDP was only 182 USD. But last year, it reached 13,300 USD, that's 73 times higher than that in 1979. This achievement was indeed not easy, especially considering the fact that in the same period of time, China's population jumped from 1 billion to 1.4 billion.

Now, as our friends know, China has already become the second largest economy in the world, and our GDP is expected to reach 20 trillion USD this year, that's much bigger than the third largest economy in the world. Also, we are the largest manufacturing nation in the world. We contributed to about 35 percent of the total global manufactured goods.

I also want to use this opportunity to emphasize that, of course there are many reasons for China's success, but the key lies in the strong leadership of the Communist Party of China, or the CPC. Under the leadership of the CPC, we have found a development path suitable to China's national conditions, and that is the path of socialism with Chinese characteristics. Since 2012 when President Xi Jinping became the top leader of the Party and the Government, socialism with Chinese characteristics has entered into a new era. Guided by Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era, China has achieved the goals of eliminating absolute poverty in 2020 and building a moderately prosperous society in all respects in 2021.

Q: Ambassador, I'll first let you finish on that particular point in terms of the prosperity notion. What does it look like primarily? Because in a Namibian context, I still have to say that we haven’t seen the prosperity scenario. But how do we translate it from what China achieved in the modern day context in terms of every developing country that want to see those prosperous societies also flourish in their own right?

A: I will come back to your question later. I also want to tell our friends, now our goal is to basically realize socialist modernization by the year 2035, and build a great modern socialist country by 2050. So that's our goal for the future.

Back to your question, I think all developing countries, we very much hope to further develop ourselves, to achieve prosperity for our nations and for our people. That's something very dear to our hearts for all of us in the developing countries. 

So first, I want to share with you some of our experience regarding poverty alleviation. As I said, we have already realized the goal of eliminating absolute poverty. We have three benchmarks to determine that. First benchmark is about household income. This benchmark requires that, in one household, per capita annual income should remain steady above China's current poverty line, which is 4000 Chinese yuan, an equivalent of about 10,000 Namibian dollars. The second benchmark is that food and clothing should be assured. The third benchmark is that compulsory education, basic health care and safe housing should be guaranteed. I want to explain a little bit for safe housing. The government will make sure that for all the families, they should live in a house with at least 13 square meters per person.

And there are some additional benchmarks such as access to safe drinking water, electricity and basic infrastructure. There's another interesting point that every household should at least receive one form of assistance from the government to help them increase income. These are the benchmarks and what we mean by eliminating absolute poverty. So what are the specific measures we have adopted? I want to elaborate on that a little bit.

First is to exercise strong leadership. The Chinese government, in this regard,  has made poverty alleviation one of its top priorities. Our top leader, President Xi Jinping, personally directed this work. He himself visited the impoverished areas more than 50 times.

The second measure we adopted is to hold all levels of government accountable. That means that all the provinces, cities, counties and towns in China, they should formulate their own plans for the poverty alleviation of their region within their jurisdiction. And there's also a strict supervision system established by the Central Government to ensure the implementation. So this is not something only staying on paper. It has to be implemented and that's very important.

The third measure we adopted is to carry out a comprehensive program of pairing assistance. This is something maybe also of interest to our Namibian friends. It means that the rich regions in China, they should pair with the poor regions to provide the financial and technical support. In addition, we also deployed 3 million officials to work and live in the impoverished villages to strengthen the local government capacity. These are the efforts we have made in poverty alleviation. Of course, there are a lot of other measures to ensure rapid economic development, but that would be a long story. I cannot explain in details in this interview.

Q: But that's the privilege, Ambassador, we having you here for today. If we also look into, like you've cited now, all levels of government working together for the poverty alleviation, because I once stated here on air, if you look at the particular miracle that China itself played in bringing 800 million people out of the poverty or the level that they were living in terms of the poverty back then, one of the questions is that outside of China, we see it like as a historical aspect, but like today in 2025, do the same measures still speak true to the remedy or to the recipe that was rolled out?  Does it still mean that the same particular policy still aims to do the same or tries to reach the same goal to ensure that poverty doesn't come back and ensure that you can only move forward? Is there a springboard also helps the small towns and the small villages to ensure that they reach the services that are needed? Does that still persist?

A: I think I need to answer your question from several perspectives. I also want to make some additional points on the poverty elimination issue, because as you mentioned, it's also important to ensure the prevention of relapse to poverty.

As I said, we achieved that goal of eliminating absolute poverty in 2020. The Chinese government immediately established transition period, from 2020 to 2025. We treated those years as a critical transition period to prevent people from falling back into poverty. So we provided continuous policy support,  and during this period of time, about 6 million households were prevented from falling back into poverty. That's my additional comments on poverty elimination.

To answer your question, as I said, I will answer from different perspectives. I think the most important perspective is the Chinese political system. As you know, our political system is very different from many others. The core element of our political system is the leadership of the Communist Party of China, the CPC. It is the largest political party in the world, with over 100 million party members. What's more important, it also has a rigorous organizational structure, and it exercises strict discipline on its party members. This is something I think very rare around the world.

The strong leadership of the CPC ensures the right direction of the government policies, the high efficiency of the public service, and also the full mobilization of national resources. I think this political system we had in China has well handled the relationship between power concentration and democratic process, as well as the relationship between social justice and economic efficiency.

As you said that in China, the central government has very strong power. It can regulate the relationship between various regions. As I already mentioned in our poverty elimination program, the central government will direct the rich provinces to help the poor provinces. I think that's something not many countries in the world can do. So we have a very strong power of macro regulation by the Chinese government.

Q: Ambassador, speaks to national identity, because you don't want one province richer than the other one, you want to bring up both levels.

A: Yes, the idea is that we are encouraging common prosperity.This is the strong point of our system. I think there are lots of examples to demonstrate this strong power of the government. It has turned out to be very important for such a large developing country as China. Because it can rationalize the distribution of the wealth of the nation.

The other thing is that we have a very strong state-owned economy, which is also very important. That's because for every country, you should have economic pillars. Those big state enterprises, they serve as very important pillars of the economy. It's very difficult for all the countries to ensure the efficiency and the cleanness of those state enterprises. We also had such problems in the past. But now, I think we have very successfully solved these problems. For those state enterprises, we have seen less corruption cases than before. On the contrary, they are making more contribution to the national development.

Another thing I think is also very important is that, we are practicing Chinese modernization, it is the socialist modernization pursued under the leadership of the CPC. That's something very important for developing countries. We should develop ourselves in a way suitable to our national conditions. Of course, we also learn experiences from other countries. We also introduce good practices of other countries to China to serve our modernization goal. But we have always been very sensitive that we have to go our own way. So for our African friends, our advice is that we should learn from other countries' good experience, but not copy their models.

Q: That is true. Ambassador, I want to ask you about the modernization perspective as well. Has there also been phases that China has implemented since the 1970s in terms of this particular growth? Or has it been a continuous phase?

A: Another thing we are very proud of ourselves is that we are quite good at planning, and we are equally good at implementing our plans. You are very right, for the modernization, it's also phased. We do it in phases. For example, as I said, we have already achieved the goal of building a relatively prosperous society in all respects. The next phase is, as I already mentioned, that by 2035, we will basically realize socialist modernization. And by the middle of the century, it will be a very different picture. By then we hope we would already have become a great modern socialist country.

Q: And on the modernization discussion, I'm sorry to still stay there, Ambassador, because obviously as for the recipe that exists from what we look at history, a country would have to try to first say let's try and get everyone into an urban area so they have access to services, education, health, safety, and all the other services. And then you leave agriculture that has to look after itself. But the modernization thing that we sometimes see is what's the best template. And you've explained now in terms of ... as a country, you need to see what is good, what doesn't work, and then try to make your own recipe based upon this. I'm asking the question, Ambassador. Based upon the agriculture sector that sometimes loses workers and people that need to work on the lands versus taking people through education and all the other services in an urban area forward, how was that balance achieved?

A: I think it's actually a very complicated project for every country to achieve modernization. Of course, urbanization is a very important indication of the level of modernization. That's also something we have been working very hard on. But in the meantime, we also believe that it's very important to develop agriculture. Especially for China, we have such a big population. We have to rely on ourselves for food security. Very luckily, we have solved that problem already. Actually, for every year, the No.1 document of the Chinese government will be about agriculture. So actually we attach very high importance to the development of agriculture. And of course in this process of urbanization, a lot of rural labor moves to the cities to find better jobs for higher income. That's a very natural process. And it's not possible and also not necessary to stop the rural migration to the cities. But of course, we can make some policy to reach a balance. So for that, we also adopted some measures trying to reach a balance as much as possible. In this process, actually the agriculture also developed together with other industries. Also, it's very important in this process for us to achieve agricultural modernization. We should not always rely on traditional agriculture.

Q: Which is one of the aspects also?

A: Yeah, that's also one of the aspects.

Q: Because you don't want people staying in agriculture too much, but agriculture also is sort of like a foundation sector.

A: Yeah, actually as I said, we made some policy to encourage some of the rural labor to stay in their villages or areas. And one of those measures is to improve the infrastructure, like the roads.

Q: I wanted to ask that at the start, Ambassador, but please finish, Ambassador.

A: The roads, the electricity, the water, everything, just to make it more attractive to the young people. We should also pay attention to the cultural development in the rural areas. So the young people can enjoy access to internet and everything. The people living in the rural areas can still enjoy a lot of those benefits the urban residents enjoy. That's also very important.

Q: The reason I wanted to ask about sort of like the infrastructure development as well, Ambassador, is primarily because I'm usually someone ... I like the subject of development, and I had development studies on school as well. I've always heard, specifically since 2020 up till now, in terms of the infrastructure development that China has embarked on. So we're talking about transport, the infrastructure around transport, and all that. In many cases of the modernization road map, what I sometimes see is that it speaks only to the urban populations. And the urban populations already enjoy a lot of services. But there's always this forgotten side of the discussion, rural development as well. It's a good thing, Ambassador, you say that young people also do not abandon the rural communities. If we look at that particular discussion, was there a time also that China realized that young people are leaving behind the old people in the villages, with the agriculture and the likes, and then it's only young people that are migrating to the urban centers and the cities? Was there any policy to try sort of like to intervene and say, hey, listen, look after the agriculture and also the smaller parts of the country as well?

A: I think the government cannot force the young people to stay where they are now. But you can be creative in policy-making. In China, I think one thing we have done is to improve the infrastructure of the townships, because the townships are very close to the villages. In your case, maybe it's a little bit different because you have a small population and a vast territory, so people are spread out in a big area. But in China, those townships actually are very close to the villages. We have put a lot of resources in developing our townships so they can become center of the rural regions.

Q: So they can give services to those guys.

A: Yeah, and also introduce some industries to establish some manufacturing facilities there. So some young people will stay. They will not leave. And today I talked a lot about the leadership of the Communist Party of China. I also want to make some additional comments on that, because I think the Western media have made a lot of negative narratives about the Communist Party of China. They even call China “Communist China” or something like that. They are trying to create a negative impression on that. So I hope our friends here can have more knowledge about the Communist Party of China. Actually, I think the Communist Party of China is a very progressive party. As I mentioned, it exercises strict discipline on its party members. That's something very rare in the world. Since President Xi became the top leader of China in 2012, he has vigorously pursued full and strict governance over the Party, emphasizing on the self-revolution of the Party and having achieved an overwhelming victory in the anti-corruption fight. 

Those strict disciplines start with regulations on small matters. Give you one example. We have the eight-point code established by the party. It's a regulation about personal conduct in eight areas. For example, party members should not accept any gift. A lot of government officials are party members. So that means government officials should not accept any gift, and they should not attend any banquet given by any person who may benefit from their official positions. And the party members or government officials should not use their government or party positions to seek private interest for themselves, for their families, and for anyone who may have connection with them. And even in this code, party members and government officials are required to work hard. That's something very interesting. There's also a very strict system to implement those rules. If anyone breaks such rules, they will be criticized by the party. Maybe people in other countries don't think it's a big issue. But it's a big issue in China if you are criticized by the party. You will also be given punishment including demotion. 

So these are the measures taken to ensure that the government officials will not be corrupt, and they work hard for the government and for the people. Under the leadership of such a strong party, we are fully confident in securing the great success in advancing Chinese modernization and achieving the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation.

Q: Ambassador, is there like an underlying philosophy? Is it more to focus on the growth of the country for the prosperity of the country? Or is it just like a strict discipline to say this is the kind of person you should try to be as a party member and as a government official?

A: China has such a large population, 1.4 billion people. And also China actually started from a very poor basis. So we have to think how to develop our country, how to make our people enjoy the benefits, those kind of things. It's not an easy job to run such a big country. Our experience has told us that we have to make the party a strong one. In order to make the party strong, we have to adopt so many supporting measures to ensure that. 

Q: 100%. Ambassador, we'll quickly take a short break. After the break, we'll quickly come back. Dear listeners, we still have 20 minutes left in today's particular program for China Corner. In studio with me is Chinese Ambassador to Namibia, that being Ambassador Zhao Weiping, helping us also understand on this pathway specifically that China took from 1979. Am I correct, Ambassador, from 1979 up until today? And then also looking at the path ahead, because it has a developmental subject or it is developmental in its subject content, but we'll be back right after this short break.

(After the break)

Q：You can ask Ambassador Weiping a question directly by calling 083288401. You have to ask it quickly. The first part of the discussion was very insightful, very interesting, provided a lot of context and information.

Let's come back to our conversation today, the recipe for modernization, growth, and development is not a one-size-fits-all, it’s more about your own destiny that you have to choose. You cited, Ambassador, the first step to take is ultimately the discussion on leadership. But in the leadership discussion, is there also the vision that you want? Is it a scenario of saying, do you want the citizen or resident to enjoy these benefits and these services, let's say by 2035? Or let's first look at the issues like in services that ultimately speak to how best can we reach the rural community and also the urban community? What the CPC had to embark on, or what is the vision that we have to look at?

A: I think we emphasize very much on regional balance and also the balance between the urban and rural areas. But of course, we cannot develop all the regions to the same level at the same time.

So for China's development, first, you know, the coastal area and the big cities, their economies advance ahead of many other areas. Then we spread the development gradually to the inland of China. Now we have reached such a level of development, and we think we should put more emphasis on developing those areas which are relatively lagging behind in this process. Now we have adequate resources to do that. So the government now especially emphasizes on the common prosperity and narrowing the gap between rich and poor, not only rich and poor among the people, but also among the regions. So we want to divert more financial and other resources to the areas which lag behind so far.

Q: I'll share now with you, Ambassador, that I sometimes watch these travelers who go and visit China as a tourist themselves to see what are their experiences. Because I always give you like their point of view experiences. One of them visited a city by the name of Chongqing. Chongqing back then was a small river town.

A: I think you are referring to Shenzhen.

Q: Yeah, it’s Shenzhen. And Shenzhen was a small town. Today it's one of China's biggest cities. If we look at that kind of a balance, obviously that was a transformation for small fishing villages because they really had a sector and people were living from the river, from the fish and the services.

If we look at that kind of a transformation taking place there, what kind of commitment does it sometimes take to say, hey, listen, Shenzhen needs to change to something that actually meets the needs in that province or region that it is based in?

A: I think Shenzhen, of course, that's the most outstanding example in terms of the transformation of a lot of places in China. Even when I go back to my hometown, I will not recognize it because it's completely different now from what it was 40 years ago when China started the policy of reform and opening up.

So actually I think Shenzhen is just the most outstanding example, but there are a lot of such stories which can tell how fundamental changes have taken place in China. In China, nowadays there are also some areas, their economic situation is still not very good, but they have become the focus of the national strategy, and the government tries to boost economic development in those areas.

Q: One of the areas, which is an agricultural perspective, but first, Ambassador, we've got a caller coming through. Good evening.

Listener: Good evening, Dwight and Your Excellency Ambassador. Thank you very much for coming. We are very glad for that. So the transition period that you mentioned that China is implementing or has implemented, that transition seems to be just five years in terms of leadership. Like here in Africa or Namibia, after you have actually brought up a project, for example, to transform or just to uplift people from the abject poverty, in the context of Namibia democracy here, is it really realistic? Because we now see after five years, it is just around the corner, and we see a lot of projects that are really of the potential to transform and also uplift people from abject poverty.

Does this democracy correspond to the reality on the ground? The implementation of those transitions, if we are to emulate the Chinese example, maybe in our own situation here, how does it really correspond? Because I just think that five years is fine, democracy, but for you to really transform and revamp, just to lift up people, how does it respond? Is it really realistic?

A: Okay, my friend, first thank you very much for asking this question. I really think that because of your question, I'm very lucky this evening attending this program. I like to have such interaction with our friends who are listening to this program. 

I think every country has its own national conditions. China has its own national conditions, and Namibia has its own national conditions. And our political system, social system and economic system are not all the same. So every country can address its own problems in their own way.

But by saying that, I think we can still learn something from what other countries are doing. I think one of the strong points of China’s system is that we can ensure high government efficiency. So for every country, no matter what kind of political system it has, government efficiency is very important.

Listener: Thank you very much, Ambassador. Because we are really learning a lot of lessons, and we thank you very much for the support. I am listening to the news, you are doing a great job. I think it's also very important to popularize more, and mobilize more resources here. And also to listen, because the perception that's outside there, given our relationship with the Chinese government and all these African countries, I think it's not really understood in the true perspective. Thank you very much, Ambassador.

A: Thank you, my friend. Thank you for your kind words.

Q: Yes, Ambassador, that last particular sort of insight from the caller is about the relationship, which is obviously a South-South relationship. I'm sorry, dear listeners, for referencing the Belt and Road Initiative discussion once again. But the Global South is obviously something that is on the books at the UN level, because it's between developing countries to learn from developing countries, which is something, Ambassador, you've mentioned the whole conversation so far. Like in China, the poorer province has to try and learn from what the richer province has been doing. And the richer province is trying to help the poorer province achieve its prosperity. On that particular notion, Ambassador, can we see a similarity in that kind of developmental pathway?

A: Yeah, I think for developing countries, it's only natural that we should help and support each other more. Especially in today's international landscape, it's a very complicated situation. China is ready to further enhance our cooperation with Namibia and all our African friends.

Last year, we successfully held the FOCAC Beijing Summit. And now we are implementing the outcomes of that FOCAC Summit. So I think it's very important for our two governments to strengthen consultation. We welcome all the proposals of our Namibian friends for strengthening our bilateral cooperation. And we are determined to do more in our cooperation with Namibia.

Q: 100%. We just have four minutes left, Ambassador. And just to refer back to some of the particular discussions we've already covered. Oh, yes, there's one particular question I forgot to ask. What opportunities are there specifically that China can offer Namibia in terms of technological advancement? Because obviously, much of our conversation earlier today focused on the development path China has taken. But if we look at learning from the development, there's obviously technology. Ambassador, you mentioned that to help rural communities, industries also need to be set up. What can we, in our pathway, learn from that kind of a development pathway?

A: First, let me start by saying that we wish to strengthen cooperation in the area of education. I think one thing is about education infrastructure. We will be ready to help our Namibian friends improve your education facilities infrastructure. In future, we hope to build more schools here.

And also we can strengthen the cooperation between the universities, like the curriculum, the training of the teachers and those kind of things. Of course, we can also cooperate in a lot of other important areas. As I said, we welcome all the proposals you may have. For example, in which area you need our assistance in terms of technology development. Once you make the proposal, we will carefully study that, and we will do our best to accommodate. I think there are a lot of areas, it depends on what kind of projects, what kind of specific needs our Namibian friends has. That's why I think it's very important to further strengthen consultation between the Embassy or the relevant departments of Chinese government and the relevant ministry of your government.

Q: 100%. Ambassador, there are just 20 seconds to go. But anything else that I did not ask, or you would like to share with the listeners before we say good night for the second episode of China Corner?

A: I enjoy very much, you know, attending this program. And the purpose is to provide more information about China, about China and Namibia relations. I hope that more listeners will attend this program. And I wish you all the best, Dwight.

Q: 100%. Thank you very much, and also enjoy the rest of the evening, Ambassador. On that note, dear listeners, this does bring us up to the end for this session of China Corner here on your number one talk radio station, that being Eagle FM.

Yes, we did cover a lot specifically on this episode in terms of understanding the development pathway that China has taken, and it is still on. Because you heard from Ambassador that there's still 2035, it's still a good 10 years to go. Obviously, in between, Namibia also is finding its own particular pathway in that regard. 

On that note, dear listeners, enjoy the rest of the evening. We'll see each other same time tomorrow. Not on the China Corner, on Home Run, but stay tuned for the rest of your programming after the break.